explain slash exclusivity to me ... I beg of thee

[sarea]

I posted this in a non-fandom journal of mine, but after awhile it became clear that I'd need to take this to the source. Please keep in mind that I am genuinely interested in discussion about this topic, and if I seem ignorant, that's because this is a cry for enlightenment! So ... anything you can share would be appreciated.

I'm going to touch on a potentially hot-button topic. I wasn't going to write about it at all, but it's been on my mind so much that I can't not.

I have had this conversation with both vatrixsta and corianderstem, but I have yet to gain full understanding. Perhaps gnrationfo can offer some insight, because he is infinitely wise and likes to scare people. That second part really has nothing to do with anything, it's simply true. <g>

The HP fandom ... maybe all fandoms ... 95 percent of m/m slash fans are women. Many (most?) of these women are heterosexual. (Or even if they weren't, it still doesn't help me understand.) Now -- I can plainly see why picturing two hot guys (in this case, Harry and Draco) getting it on would be a turn on. I mean -- hello. Yum. BUT. To the exclusion of all else? To the exclusion of any het sex? Now, it's my personal feeling (being on the fringes of the fandom) that the slash subculture in HPdom is deemed "superior" to het. Harry/Draco is waaaaay more "respectable" (for lack of a better word) than nearly any other pairing, it seems to me. (Draco/Ginny, I get points for being UC; lose points for being boring het.)

So is it just that slashers find het fic boring, particularly in the fandom, which tends, much (not all) of the time, toward romantic banality? i.e., Your typical schmoopy romance? But if that's the case, I'd have to take issue with it, because -- hello, TONS of H/D fic is schmoopy and angsty and reads like a boring romance, just like het fic -- but w/ the key fact that it's H/D. So is it the fact that it's Harry and Draco that is supposed to make the schmoop avant garde, risque, titillating, unique? But that might be another question entirely.

Here is my actual question, which I had meant to ask before going off all rantingly. <g> What is the attraction for a heterosexual (or even gay, I suppose) female who ONLY enjoys m/m slash? As I've said before, enjoying m/m slash as part of your overall sexual repertoire, I totally get. But to the exclusion of all else -- that I don't get. at. all. It would be just as weird to hear about a gay man who only enjoyed reading het sex. To break it down:

Gay man + likes reading het sex + likes reading m/m slash = fine
Het woman + likes reading het sex + likes reading m/m slash = fine
Gay man + likes reading m/m slash + doesn't like reading het sex = fine
Het woman + likes reading het sex + doesn't like reading m/m slash = fine
Gay man + likes reading het sex + doesn't like reading m/m slash = ???
Het woman + likes reading m/m slash + doesn't like reading het sex = ???

(There are also the gay woman and the het man to consider, but for the purposes of simplicity, I'll stop there.) And in these cases, when I say "like," I mean "turned on by." I have heard it bantered around that "if you say that you don't like slash, it means you're homophobic." Before I started thinking about all this, I totally agreed -- at least w/ the spirit of that statement. Now I think there's a difference between "like" and "turned on by." I don't think someone has to be turned on by het or slash in order to be declared fully non-phobic. Do they???

I mean, like I said, I find H/D hot sometimes, but I need my het sex too. I can't imagine being a heterosexual woman and only want the boysex. What? Huh? So if I see a cute boy on the street, am I not thinking, "Man, I want that cute boy" but instead am thinking, "Man, I want to see that cute boy with that other boy over there"??? And if I were, say, watching the two boys having sex, and one of them suggested that I join in the festivities, would I be like, "No thanks, that would turn me right off"??? At least, w/ het men and their thing about f/f sex, they also like het sex. And many slashers do have a rounded profile. It's the heterosexual females who shun all het sex in favor of m/m slash that make me so confused.

I DON'T GET IT. I want to understand. This is like when I grilled leiliaxf about the whole "food cannot touch each other on a plate or I won't eat it" thing. It's completely boggling and fascinating to me. Anyone have any theories or views about this??? Actually, I know you do. Care to share with the clueless? <g>

Comments

[tropes.livejournal.com]

An excellent question, and one which I cannot answer, as I am Switzerland most of the time. As long as it's good, I'll love it. :)

[akscully.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's what I got on het women who love slash to the exclusion of all else.

Slash love--if one cock is good, two must be better. Besides, in slash, one of the participants usually displays some typical femme qualities or behaviors, so a het woman can get the vicarious experience through that character.

Het non-love--het is boringly conventional. Everyone does het. Het is not cool.

This may be completely off, but that's what I read from het women who only do slash and are repulsed by het.

[jade-okelani.livejournal.com]

Well, d00d, you know I feel the pain of your confusion. *g* I will offer up a few of my experiences wrt slash:

In the BtVS/AtS fandom, I have noticed that a good portion of the quality fic leans toward a slashy persuasion, Angel/Spike being particularly popular. Now, like you, I don't have an issue w/slash -- what I don't understand is the exclusivity of it, why slash is given an almost exalted place in fandom -- all the "cool kids" are doing it.

From the dawn of fanfiction, there has been slash. Kirk/Spock, I believe, was the first slashy pairing to be born, one of the first pairings, full stop. So one could say that fandom is founded on slash.

That, of course, still doesn't explain to me its raging popular amongst straight women. *g* This is no doubt my own psychological block, however -- when I'm reading smut, I want to see "me" there, and I just don't have a penis no matter what I do. (None of the lotions and pills work.)

The assertation that someone is homophobic because they don't like slash is a really, really fine line, imho. I don't dislike slash. I've read slash that I've loved. However, I have never been turned on by slash. (Threesomes are another can-o-worms we can tackle after this subject is at a close.)

One of my favorite authors in the BtVS/AtS fandom writes slash almost exclusively. She is immensely talented and has a grasp of character that is stunning to me. I love every single one of her fics, but they don't "do" anything for me on the v. basic level well written het-smut does.

And, I think that's yet another topic -- are we talking about slash smut or are we talking about a gay romance? Because that's where I drawn my lines -- as long as a romance is written well, and stays true to character, the sexual preference of said characters is of little to no concern to me. I'm not in it to get an illicit thrill -- I'm in it for the schmoopy love factor, or the angsty drama, or what have you. The only time I don't "get" slash fic is honestly when it gets down to the sex -- is it wrong that I'm just not turned on by two guys, or two girls?

Sigh. There I go, providing more questions, and no answers. *g* I guess the reason I even bother to wade in on the topic in the first place is because I feel that, if I don't lovelovelove slash, I'm always going to hover around mediocrity. That's honestly the feeling I get from fandom, and, intentional or not, real or not, there it is.

[schuywriter.livejournal.com]

I'm not Swizerland but I'm not clued in completely, either. This is something I've thought vaguely about but never deeply. I never had an inclination to read slash until Harry Potter. I gave it a try and liked it -- sometimes. It all depends, really. How well is it written, is it emotional, is it boring or cliched? Do I feel in the mood to read slash?

I read and write both het and slash. I used to write only het. No, wait I take that back. Once, in early 1997 when i wrote my very first erotica stories I'd asked people on alt.sex.stories.m to let me write custom fics for them. I wanted to practice this new area of writing. I wrote two fics (had many requests but couldn't fulfill them all, suddenly finding out it's not as easy as it looks!) one was for a couple about the woman having sex with men in porn theatre during a porn movie. The other was for a guy who wanted to uh, have himself depicted as being abducted by a bunch of guys, raped and forced to have sex with a horse. or maybe it was a dog, Hell I dunno. So that was my first slashy type story. Yes, I know it sounds very gross -- the horse and dog part. He wanted it to take place in a barn -- hey I gave him a barn, lol:) I remember his name was Scott. I think I called it Scott Goes All the Way or something like that.

But I never got turned on my it till Harry Potter.

I don't think that if you don't want to see homosexual people having sex or read about it that you are afraid of or disgusted by homosexual people. I believe that it's perfectly fine and normal. Just as I don't expect homosexual people to crave reading about het sex or watching het porn. Now just because some gay people don't find het stuff interesting or arousing and might even find it gross doesn't offend me in the least and it's their minds, their choice...who the hell am I to say what people HAVE TO LIKE or else be banished/labelled/cruxified? That's plain stupid.

So anyone who writes slash exclusively -- what's the dealio? Is it a mood? Is it the only fiction you get turned on by writing? Do you still read het and get turned on by it and just don't feel like writing it?

there are no wrong answers:)

[apple-eyes.livejournal.com]

Don't worry Sarea. I'm just as confused as you are.

So if I see a cute boy on the street, am I not thinking, "Man, I want that cute boy" but instead am thinking, "Man, I want to see that cute boy with that other boy over there"??? And if I were, say, watching the two boys having sex, and one of them suggested that I join in the festivities, would I be like, "No thanks, that would turn me right off"???

0_0 LoL. Sorry I can't help shed some light on this subject, but I will share the confusion with you.

[lizardlaugh.livejournal.com]

I think it is pretty weird myself, but consider that it is probably just fanfic where they are all slash all the time. You know, in real life, they are probably all into the het thing. Or celibate.

Personally, I say variety is the spice of life. Sometimes a girl needs her schmoopy het, and sometimes she needs boys kissing boys.

[nc-kat2002.livejournal.com]

I like both het and slash, although I do prefer het. But that's just me. There are slash fics I really enjoy reading. I'd think that only reading het or slash and not the other would be a bit limiting, wouldn't you? I mean, you'd miss out on some really, really good fics either way.

Re:

[sarea-okelani.livejournal.com]

Yes, you would, and that's exactly the point. The topic at hand is why het readers would read slash exclusively, or the reverse. Not whether one should read both. I'm all for the both.

[runpunkrun]

Okay, ropo sent me here and told me to say something about slash.

First: where does slash happen? A lot depends on the fandom. In some fandoms, the main pairing is het. In The X-Files, most fic centers around the Mulder/Scully relationship. There's slash, but it doesn't have the same audience that MSR does. Smallville, however, is so gay that the dominant pairing is Clark/Lex. There's het, but there's way more slash. Buffy probably sleeps with more guys than girls. Spike sleeps with both. It depends on the characters you have, and who works with who.

Why does m/m slash happen? Because it's hot. Or, you know, it's not. Whatever floats your boat, but people write m/m slash because they like to read it. Slash has very little to do with sexual orientation. Just because a straight girl likes to read m/m slash doesn't mean she's not interested in het sex out there in the real world. All fanfic is a form of fantasy, and sex in fanfic is just an extension of that.

[laurakaye.livejournal.com]

There are as many theories on this question as there are people who ask it; indeed, some academics make such questions into a career. One popular theory is that m/m slash lets women see men acting tenderly towards each other- something which isn't well accepted in general Western culture. Other people think that by engaging in an erotic scenario involving two men, women are able to think about sex free from traditional gender expectations. Others attribute it to "normal female interest in men bonking," to quote the title of a Henry Jenkins article. In some fandoms, the fans feel that the only characters who are interesting or well-developed enough to engage with are the two primary male characters. Compare, for example, X-Files fandom with Due South fandom. In Due South the focus of the show is the relationship between Fraser and Ray; any female characters are secondary and much less well developed. It is much more difficult for a writer to create a romance between one of these female characters and one of the male leads- they just don't have the ties, the background, the richness of shared history that the "buddy show" genre gives to the two male leads.

In X-Files, on the other hand, the two leads are of different genders, and thus X-Files has one of the largest segments of het fans of any fandom I've participated in, perhaps rivalled only by Buffy. In X-Files, it is the slash pairings that are harder to write, that have built up less emotional weight, and so a slash writer has farther to go to create a romance with equal emotional resonance.

When I was a child, I remember watching old Star Trek reruns and desperately wanting Kirk and Spock to hug each other. It wasn't until many years later when I discovered slash that those yearnings were addressed. *g*

I'm polyfictional- I'll read any pairing as long as it's well done- but I admit that I usually prefer slash; in most of my fandoms, the slash fiction is more *satisfying* to read, for me, than the het. What I want to read about are transcendent friendships that turn into love- and whether it's Mulder and Scully or Starsky and Hutch, the emotional payoff is the same.

Of course, my short answer for why I like slash is usually "two great tastes that taste great together." ;-)

[sarea-okelani.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, this is probably the best explanation I've seen to help me understand the phenomenon -- thank you. <g> If I'm not fully there, I think it's likely because of the mysterious nature of attraction itself -- something that's not always (if ever) explainable. So maybe I was asking for the impossible in the first place.

Emotional history and resonance between characters, I get that. Your examples work, as does Punk's example of Clark/Lex in Smallville. But say you have a situation where the characters are pretty much equally developed -- like in HP (or really, in the case of Draco, he'd be one of those supporting players without much depth given to him by canon, so what gives? <g>) -- what drives a heterosexual woman to want to read m/m slashfic, and to do so exclusively? Is it really because she does not find any of the female characters compelling enough? Or that she cannot identify with them? Or is it something else? (And if it's something else ... what is it? <g>)

I suppose the question I really ought to pose is toward those heterosexual women in the HPdom who read slash exclusively -- is your preference slash in this fandom, or slash in any fandom? Because you bring up a good point -- that some ship preferences come about due to the factors involved (mix of canon background and personal taste). So, switching back and forth between het and slash depending on fandom/characters, that makes sense to me.

What would still be interesting to me would be those heterosexual women who choose to read/write m/m slash no matter what, irrespective of character background.

[concernedlily.livejournal.com]

Hi. *waves* I came in from vatrixsta and I am one of those rare and shy creatures, the het girl who reads Harry/Draco more or less exclusively (disclaimer: I've only been reading HP for about two weeks. But so far it's been H/D. And the Draco trilogy, which has a lot of subtext).

First a note about slash being seen as more exclusive/better: I've read this explained as being a hangover from back when fic was all in 'zines. Slash was a lot more of a niche and a writer had to sort of prove her/himself before they would be introduced to slash, and so it got the better, more well-liked authors. Now, of course, any fool can publish slash (and usually does), but I think that attitude still permeates fandom to some extent.

I think a lot of it, for me, is about my own interaction with media, which is irredeemably OTPish. I've had het OTPs, but at the moment, the fandoms I'm reading, I'm in it for the slash. It's not that I'm dead against het in those fandoms, I'd just prefer to spend my time reading the pairing I like; I'm not ruling out the possibility of future het pairings.

However. It's kind of a vicious circle of slash goggles; now I know what kind of stuff I'm looking for, I see slash in disturbing places, and when I start poking around a new fandom I tend to gravitate towards the slash. Why, I'm not sure. Part of it is the two cocks are better than one theory; along with that, if a sex scene is hot when you fancy one participant, it's really hot when you fancy them both. I also like the emotional dynamics of gay relationships, perhaps against a backdrop of an unfriendly society, perhaps against the characters' own self-images; there's a lot of possibility for drama (and I dislike schmoopy stuff and while that certainly exists in slash fic, it tends to be... the, well, less well-written of it). Also, in any fanfiction I'm not really after vicarious experience; when I read slash smut I don't put myself in the position of one of the men any more than I put myself into the position of the woman in het smut (I think this is to do with already having both established characterisation and, in TV fandoms, a 'body' for the character).

... And I've probably gone on enough. Sorry about that.

Re:

[sarea-okelani.livejournal.com]

... And I've probably gone on enough.

Actually, I was just getting into it! Thanks for stopping by ... this has all been very interesting for me.

(Obviously I found it. *g*)

[noelleleithe.livejournal.com]

The reason I've read from one or two people before is that the reader doesn't want to read graphic sex in which they could conceivably participate because it becomes too personal; it gives them a sort of "bad touch" feeling. No, I don't feel that way, and I'm not sure I entirely get it, but that's the explanation I've read -- the reader isn't comfortable reading a story that could apply directly to his or her personal sex life, because it feels invasive.

As for the "if you don't like slash, you're homophobic" statement, I think that would apply only if you were saying you don't like slash as a genre, not that you don't like slash as a reader. That is, if you think slash is fine but just don't like reading it yourself, that doesn't make you homophobic, but if you think all slash is wrong and bad and shouldn't be written, and of COURSE you would never READ it (ick!) ... well, that might not prove homophobia, but it would make a pretty strong case. *g*

[schuywriter.livejournal.com]

Is anyone here on the AFF yahoo group? Someone just started this topic there and a lady gave a *really really good* explanation of her interest in slash. I wanted you all to be able to read itif you aren't aware of the group. You can join and read past messages here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AdultFanFictionNet/

The thread is called "Slashers"